Peacemaking in the Church and Beyond - Lesson 6

So, would you guys like to start? These folks are dealing with the people-pleasing culture, so the three questions are what are the attitudes of the pastor when approached by the lady; what are the actions he might take, and what are the likely results? Who'd like to jump in? 

STUDENT:  Well, a lot of this -- it's just interesting because the laissez faire kind of pastor, I've seen this in action with this issue, even, through other folks and, me being a counselor, people talking to me and such. And so one of two things happens when, you know, ‘I hear you. Sorry, that's a problem.’ Just real listening, because this is a people pleaser, while she's talking to them, you know, and then also potentially like a minimizing or trying to make her think it's not as bad as it really is, or, you know, the idea of, well, you know, I mean, you can kind of convict them there, I mean, I don't know this pastor's theology of the idea of ‘men are men,’ and ‘maybe if you just continue to love him,’ and just kind of putting that on there, not a whole lot of action steps by any stretch. And then, you know, what does this person do? Nothing in terms of, you know, the pastor doesn't at all feel the need to talk to the man at all or ask him how he's doing or any of that stuff, because that's their relationship, and who wants to get in the middle of a relationship? Nobody, especially somebody who is a people pleaser. And then I've seen it break down in a couple of different ways, and we were talking about it. Who knows, it could happen a thousand different ways. But one case that I know of specifically ended up in divorce because the woman eventually had to sort of build boundaries with her husband and say, you know, I can't have that as you're leading our kids, and you became consumed with it, and she'd gone to the church for help, but the church continued that kind of laissez faire thing, and because it ended up in divorce, she was the one ostracized, and he still has leadership with different ministries at the church because nobody ever addressed that. 

That's real stuff, isn’t it?

STUDENT:  Yeah, that happened. But then another situation we talked about the woman was left with, now what do I do because I just continue to feel devalued, and do I go to a different pastor person, or how do you get -- I mean, are pastors even taught to confront people or expected to do that kind of thing anymore? I mean, I feel like in this day and age the idea of church discipline is so foreign, but I think the typical person at a church -- I mean, I'm just throwing this out there; I'm asking you guys this, but most -- and I'm not talking about the true believing, seeking, but even those folks, that a man in our culture, for the pastor to come and say, you know, I’ve heard you're having a problem with this, how many men would be back at that church next week when he was asked? 

Because there's a hundred other churches they could go to.

STUDENT:  Right! Or not even have to go. But I think that's the fear and obviously, a real culture, a real church -- 

And certainly, there's no guarantees, and maybe we could just put this as a landmark; even when we do it right, even when there's a peacemaking culture, there's no guarantees that the result will be positive. But there is a biblical way of dealing with these issues, and the reason that this example was chosen is because it is so prolific in the church, and it is handled so variously from church to church. One way that I've seen it handled is the pastor does not confront the man, but he develops a sermon on the issue and hopes that the person gets the point, which he usually doesn't, but that's typically the way that it's handled, whether it's that issue or any other. So yeah, it's a tough one; it’s just a tough, tough situation. Thank you. 

Well, what about the controlling guy, the controlling leader? What might be his attitude toward a problem like this? Actions and likely results. 

STUDENT:  The attitude would probably be to confront the woman, to force her husband to stop, or else. Action might be that she would leave and realize she couldn't deal with it. 

So, you're saying the controlling person would put the pressure on the woman? 

STUDENT:  Well, she's the one who came to him. And I didn't think about the pastor going to the man because I figured it would have to come through the woman to get to the man. And if she doesn't listen to the controlling pastor, then she may leave, go for help elsewhere. And the action, of course, is now getting to the root of the problem, because that's probably a symptom of something that's going on. So, the result, the pastor may scare her away if she's not ready for change. 

STUDENT:  Yeah, he’d either scare her away or, if she wasn't ready for a change, she would stay there but feel isolated. 

STUDENT:  So, certainly not supported. Can you see a scenario where a controlling pastor might confront the situation like a bull in a china shop, go in with guns blazing and even share the information with others that are in power positions to bring the person under control? Yeah. To pray for them, yeah, I've seen that kind of a scenario. It's tough. 

Well, let's turn to the guys who are supposed to have all the answers, the peacemaking culture leader, attitudes, actions, and likely result.

STUDENT:  We're fortunate we have the ideal, so we can make it sweet and ideal. Attitudes? This pastor would probably approach it with confidence rather than fear. He would approach it with hope rather than despair. And he probably would kind of say, you know, it's good that this has surfaced so we can deal with it before it implodes. 

So that's the attitude. 

STUDENT:  That would be his attitude as he approached the situation. 

STUDENT:  It’s the unfreezing moment… 

STUDENT:  His actions:  We anticipated that he would commit to this woman and her husband, to be involved in the process with them, to walk through this with them, and then he would involve them in counseling either with him or with other experts, and then he would establish an accountability support system for the man as the man transitions out of this bondage into freedom. So those would be some of his actions. Then the results, our ideal results: Reconciliation between the husband and God, between husband and wife, and the wife and her husband, and then reconciliation to the point where the husband actually becomes, after a while, a support for other men who are facing that same problem. So that's our ideal. 

STUDENT:  But at least a recognition of the turmoil in the conflict and the devastation that he's doing to himself and to his family if he decides not to. 

So, walk us through one more time the actions, because I thought that those were particularly poignant and good. Walk through those steps. 

STUDENT:  The pastor would commit himself to be involved in the process with them and walk through that with them as they tried to fix this problem, and that he'd involve them in counseling either with himself or with other people who were more expert in the area. And the third thing we said is that the pastor would help the husband establish an accountability support system to make that transition from bondage to freedom. 

Tim, I don't want to put you on the spot, but as a pastor, did you deal with this kind of scenario in the past? 

STUDENT:  In the church where I was on senior staff, the elder that was assigned to me, his wife came to me with this exact problem. So, yeah, I did. And he denied it. ‘Oh, no, I'm just kind of on a chat room,’ but then he was caught red handed in a number of situations. So, trying to walk through it with him, trying to walk through it with her, with all of the fear and turmoil and the shock and then trying to bring it together, I'd like to say it worked out well, but it didn’t. He decided that he wanted the internet and the porn more than he wanted his family, so their relationship ended, and he was removed from the church.

STUDENT:  This was an elder, not just a layperson… 

I didn't know you were going to share that. And you didn't know I was going to ask, but thank you for sharing that. I think what this points out is that being committed to peacemaking does not always end in successful results, but we're called to peacemaking because that is the gospel. It's just like when we share the gospel of Christ with others, it doesn't always result in a positive response, but it's the responsibility to live out the gospel. David? 

STUDENT:  The first time I balked against the attitude expressed because it was, you said confidence, not fear, and I said to myself, no, it's humility, not fear, to get through it. But then I realized that that is a confidence in God. You know, it's not a confidence that, hey, we can fix this. 

That’s good, very good.

STUDENT:  Would it be appropriate at some point since you were dealing with a female to bring another female into that to help? 

STUDENT:  Yeah, my wife. 

STUDENT:  Okay, just to help, to say, you know, are you really hearing me from my perspective? That's excellent; I think that’s real key to love... 

So, before we take a break, could I ask you a couple of questions? Which way does your church tend to slide on this slippery slope? Or which way did the churches in your past tend to slide on this slippery slope? And what has been the result of people pleasing or controlling responses in your church as you think through those in the past? Do any examples come to mind quickly?

STUDENT: I did go to a church in the past that Matt and I have seen, the leadership was very people pleasing and the church as a whole people pleasing. Those few conflict people sort of got their way, and everybody talked about them, you know, like in business meetings and things like that. But everybody else peacemaking, I’ll call it, and I can say that there're, you know, several situations that I know are still festering and have never been addressed through long, long, long periods of time. 

So, they tend to slide toward the people-pleasing culture, then. They're happy over on the extreme of that.

STUDENT:  And super nervous if you start really dealing with something. 

STUDENT:  One church I’m familiar with, they actually pursue a peacemaking culture and have some people who do the peacemakers ministry, but they do tend to slide towards the controlling culture; if a conflict comes up, the senior pastor and the lead team undermine it with the fight fire with fire, get rid of the situation, drive the people away, and then cover it up by saying it was a preference thing, or they were not following the direction of the church. 

STUDENT:  In another church I know of -- I’ve got lots of experience of this kind of stuff -- it's a church that's led by a founding pastor, and when you meet him, he is the most spiritual-sounding person ever. Through the years, people who have been closest to him, if they’ve had conflict, it's amazing, but he's always the martyr, or he spiritualized it, and if you come in conflict with him, then people now know that you're not as spiritual because you’ve come in conflict with him, and it's caused -- I mean, his marriage actually fell apart, but nobody in leadership gave him time off, made him take time off because he wanted to plow on through because he was a victim in that situation, at least that's the way it was spun, it’s just this ongoing sort of -- there've been staff members who have felt this kind of controlling thing, but plowing on because he is the ‘spirit of peace’; the spiritual language is amazing, and the brokenness. 

You used some very, very key words there that are very telling. Sure.

STUDENT:  You asked the question, where does your church fit in this, and so I immediately thought about this church, and it strikes me as I think about it, I would imagine we’d get different answers from different people to that question. 

Probably would. And why is that? 

STUDENT:  Because different people on different issues have probably felt they've been on the short end of the stick, or whatever -- I can't think of the right phrase but felt victimized or whatever. 

So, if you feel like you're on the short end of the stick, you'd feel like it was a controlling culture. 

STUDENT:  Exactly. Yeah. And then there would be other people on that same issue, who have had the same issue, who would say, oh, it really looks like a proper peacemaking culture here. And then other people would be on the other side of that issue and go, no, no, no; they're just pleasing, and so I think we’d get different answers from different people.

That's a good point. Yeah.

STUDENT:  I can remember several different major controversies that occurred when I was on the Board of Elders, significant things, and it was very interesting to watch different parties react totally differently to the same set of facts. 

So, a more pointed question before we take a break:  What is your own leadership tendency on the slippery slope of conflict? If you could just, as we close this part, make an arc on your piece of paper, and just casually put an X where you feel like you might right now tend to be on that arc. Wherever you are, it's okay; I mean, this is not something you’re going to share publicly. But where are you on that arc? And after you've made that step, that X, assuming that you're not right at the top, right north -- and if you are, then maybe we need to have another discussion -- but if you're not true north, take just a moment or two and think about what it is to be a peacemaking culture and peacemaking leader, and think about a step, perhaps, that you could take in the next weeks and months to inch toward that true north. Is that a fair question? What might that look like for you? You don't have to write down. Just think about it. Just ponder it in your mind.