Essentials of Catholic Theology - Lesson 1

What Unites and Divides Protestants and Roman Catholics

Have you stopped to consider what Protestants and Roman Catholics have in common theologically and in practice? Thre are quite a few areas of agreement that can create opportunities for dialogue and fellowship. There are also significant differences in core principles and even differences in the way theological terms are defined. Key theological terms like grace, mercy, justification and sacraments have different meanings for each group. Listening to this lecture is a great opportunity for you to see the main similarities and differences between Protestants and Roman Catholics. It will also provide context for the other lectures in this course. 

Gregg Allison
Essentials of Catholic Theology
Lesson 1
Watching Now
What Unites and Divides Protestants and Roman Catholics


A. Systemic approach to Roman Catholic Theology

B. Roman Catholic theology as a system is grounded on two axioms

1. The nature-grace interdependence

2. The Christ-Church interconnection

C. Vast agreement on ten matters

D. There are significant differences in theology and practice


A. Divine revelation: Scripture and Tradition, or Scripture alone

B. Canon of Scripture

C. The interpretation of Scripture


A. Image of God

B. Sin and its consequences

C. The role of Mary

D. The Church

E. The Sacraments

F. Doctrine of salvation

G. Good works

H. Perseverance

I. Purgatory

  • Have you stopped to consider what Protestants and Roman Catholics have in common theologically and in practice? Thre are quite a few areas of agreement that can create opportunities for dialogue and fellowship. There are also significant differences in core principles and even differences in the way theological terms are defined. Key theological terms like grace, mercy, justification and sacraments have different meanings for each group. Listening to this lecture is a great opportunity for you to see the main similarities and differences between Protestants and Roman Catholics. It will also provide context for the other lectures in this course. 

  • The relationship between nature and grace, and also the interconnection of Christ and the church are the two foundational axioms on which everything in the Roman Catholic Church is structured. Everything from the nature of God to how creation works to salvation to church services to what happens after you die depends on these two ideas. Everything in Roman Catholic theology and practice is consistent with and determined by these two principles. 

  • On what authority does the Roman Catholic Church base their teachings and beliefs? What do they mean by general revelation and divine revelation? How and by whom is revelation transmitted and interpreted? What role does the Bible play in this process? Who makes up the Magisterium and what is their role? Why is the Catholic Bible different from the Protestant Bible? Understanding what the sources of revelation for the Roman Catholic Church are and how they transmit and interpret them will give you insight into their theology and practice. 

  • What is a sacrament in the Roman Catholic Church? How are they celebrated? Why are there seven sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church? What is their significance? What does, "Christ's Pascal mystery" refer to? This course gives you the opportunity to understand more about what the sacraments are, how you celebrate them and why they are a central element of Roman Catholic theology.

  • In Roman Catholic doctrine and practice, the Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life. Why is this true? What are the elements of the Eucharist and what takes place with the elements when the Eucharist is celebrated? What effect does it have on the people that participate? How is the Protestant view of the Eucharist different? What difference does it make? Take some time to consider the meaning of the Lord's Supper and why it is important to you.

  • In Roman Catholic theology, what is required for salvation and how do you accomplish it? Part of the answer lies in understanding the interface of law, grace, justification and merit. Also law, remission of sins, regeneration and sanctification are involved, all within the context of the Roman Catholic Churchas both mother and teacher. Listen further to understand how these parts are connected and intertwined. Then compare Protestant theology? Which position is Biblical? 

  • Why is Mary mentioned throughout Roman Catholic liturgy and theology? What is Dr. Allison referring to when he says that Mary is not just a tangent of Roman Catholic faith, but that Mariology epitomizes the core of their theological system? Why is this the case? How does this affect how people worship God and practice their faith? How does this compare with a Protestant view of Mary? As you listen, consider why Mary was important and what her role was in the life and ministry of Jesus. 

This course takes a systemic approach to explain the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and gives a comparative assessment to evangelical theology in the areas of salvation, Jesus, the church, eucharist, baptism, and Mariology.

The quotes that Dr. Allison is reading are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an official catechism approved by the Roman Catholic Church.

Recommended Books

Essentials of Catholic Theology - Student Guide

Essentials of Catholic Theology - Student Guide

This course takes a systemic approach to explain the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and gives a comparative assessment to evangelical theology in the areas of...

Essentials of Catholic Theology - Student Guide

Essentials of Catholic Theology

Dr. Gregg Allison


What Unites and Divides Protestants and Roman Catholics

Lesson Transcript


I'm excited about joining you in looking at Roman Catholicism, its theology and its practice. What unites and divides Protestants and Roman Catholics? By way of introduction, I take a systemic approach to Roman Catholic theology that's different from an atomistic approach, which looks at just individual doctrines like justification. The papacy, Mary, the Old Testament pact, Old Testament apocryphal writings and then looks at them individually, but never quite puts them together. My approach is different from that. I look at Roman Catholic theology in terms of a system. It's a worldview, it's a it's a whole way of life that coheres very well together. Makes sense as a package. And so I'm going to take a systemic approach and then look at individual doctrines and show how this these doctrines relate to the overall system. Indeed, I believe that Roman Catholic theology is a system that's grounded on two axioms, two foundational principles. The first is the nature, grace, interdependence, that God has created, nature, things that are created in such a way to be capable of receiving and then communicating the grace of God, which in turn must be communicated by these elements of nature. We'll return to this topic later on. The second axiom, the second foundational principle is the Christ Church interconnection that God has designed the Roman Catholic Church to be the continuation of the incarnation of Jesus Christ such that Christ is present His full, daily, full humanity and His body in the Roman Catholic Church. When that which then becomes the ongoing incarnation of Jesus Christ in the world today. We'll come back to that axiom or principle also in a little bit as we talk about Roman Catholic theology. I want us to be sure not to overlook the many commonalities that exist between Roman Catholic theology and Protestant or evangelical theology.


There's vast agreement on ten matters. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity, all Catholics, all Protestants, all evangelicals, all Eastern Orthodox followers, for that matter, believe that God eternally exists as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The God is three persons, one nature. We also all agree on the nature of God that He is impotent. He's a mission. He is omnipresent. So he is all powerful. He's all knowing. He's everywhere, present. He is eternal. He's loving. He's just. He's truthful, faithful, merciful and so forth. We all agree on the nature of God. We also agree that God has revealed himself in various ways through general revelation and creation and the human conscience, through special revelation, his Word and Jesus Christ. So we all agree that there is divine revelation by which God discloses who He is and discloses his ways. We agree on the person of Jesus Christ that about 2000 years ago, the Eternal Son of God became the God man by taking on the fullness of human nature. So one person with two natures, one fully divine nature, one fully human nature. We all agree about that. And we also agree about the saving work of Jesus Christ that the God man lived a perfect, sinless life, went through the passions and struggles leading up to the cross. He was crucified. He died. He was buried. He rose again. He ascended, is now exalted and seated at the right hand of God, the Father. We agree that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world. He's the one who died and rose again to pay the penalty for our sins so that we might be saved. We also all agree about the person and work of the Holy Spirit. He is the third person of the Trinity.


He's not a junior God. He's not on the junior varsity team just waiting for the father and the son to call him under the varsity team. Right. He's fully God, and his many ministries are vital for us individually as well as for the church. He convicts us of sin, he regenerates us, he sanctifies us. We all agree about the person and work of the Holy Spirit, and we agree about the glory and depravity of human beings. We all agree that human beings, each and every one, is created in the image of God. And so there's dignity and significance and worth because of how God has created us. But we also all agree that we fallen, that Adam and Eve sinned. They plunged the entire human race into this desperate situation of sinfulness, out of which God, through Christ, by the work of the Spirit, must save us, must draw us out. We all agree on the Divine initiative in salvation, that God is the one who. You must make the first move. He is the one who approaches us first in order to draw us to himself. There is some confusion about Roman Catholic theology that it's just a works based system, but people have to just work their way to salvation. That's not true. We'll come back to this later on. But we all agree that God is the one who initiates salvation. That then demands a human response. We all agree about the community of faith that in the very same act that God places us in Christ. He also places us in the Church of Jesus Christ. We all agree that in the same act that He places us in Christ. God also places us in the church, which then becomes the community of faith.


So we're all members of the Body of Christ, the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Now we're going to have very different views on what the church is. But we all agree that we're not just a bunch of individuals, but God has joined us together in a community of faith. And finally, we all agree about the living hope we all expect in terms of the next big future event that Jesus Christ is going to return and that there will be judgment, there will be resurrection. And eventually this will give way to the eternal state, which is the new heavens and the new earth. So these are ten areas of vast agreement. But a word of caution at this point. Roman Catholic theology and Protestant theology are very different systems. They're very different worldviews, and they operate on different principles. So here's my caution. Even when we use the same terms, the words may signify something different. We all love the terms grace, mercy, justification, evangelization, the gospel, the sacraments. Just to take a few examples. These are words that are beloved by both Roman Catholics and Protestants, evangelicals alike, at the same time. The two different systems often have different concepts at work when they're using these terms. Thus, both traditions, Roman Catholicism and Protestantism need to be cautious about embracing commonalities, using the same words, but only having a thin veneer of agreement. What then, are the key differences between Roman Catholic theology and Protestant theology? I'm going to use a number of points to describe these. So first, we're going to talk about key differences regarding scripture, tradition and interpretation. Let's begin with divine revelation in the Roman Catholic Church. Divine revelation comes through two aspects. Scripture and tradition. Tradition would be the communication that Jesus made orally to his apostles, who in turn communicated those truths orally to their successors.


The bishops in the Catholic Church And these teachings continued to be nurtured and protected and developed by the Roman Catholic Magisterium or teaching Office. The Pope in in accordance with the bishops. So tradition is one aspect of divine revelation as well as Scripture. That's the Roman Catholic view. Of course, we Protestants, we evangelicals, hold to the formal principle of Protestantism, which is Sola Scriptura scripture alone, that we disagree. That divine revelation consists of both Scripture and tradition. We affirm Scripture only. What about the canon of Scripture? Roman Catholics and evangelicals agree on the New Testament canon. There are 27 identical books in the Roman Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible. Where the difference comes is with the Old Testament canon. For Roman Catholics, they hold to the 39 books that we evangelicals would have an art Old Testament, but they include the apocryphal writings, the apocryphal, a word that simply means hidden or mysterious. Not quite sure why these extra writings in the Catholic Old Testament are called apocryphal writings. But the the Old Testament is bigger in the Roman Catholic Bible. It includes Tobit, Judith, first and second Maccabees, The Wisdom of Solomon ecclesiastic casts. You hear the ending on that? The Roman Catholic Bible and Protestant Bible include Ecclesiastes. But the Roman Catholic apocryphal writings include a book called Ecclesiastic Curse, or Sira and Baruch. So these are seven additional apocryphal writings in the Roman Catholic Old Testament, as well as our books of Esther and Daniel have additional sections in the Roman Catholic Bible. So the Roman Catholic Old Testament includes the apocryphal writing Protestant Bibles. Evangelical Bibles only have the 39 books of the Old Testament and do not include the Apocrypha. What about the interpretation of Scripture? Roman Catholic interpretation focuses on multiple meanings of most every biblical text.


In addition to the literal meaning, there's various spiritual meanings, but evangelicals tend to focus on only one single meaning of every biblical text. Roman Catholic interpretation does a lot of allegory. Zation with the biblical text finds a lot of allegory. Whereas Protestants, evangelicals, there are interpretive methods. We would obviously include typology, events and circumstances, persons in the Old Testament that prefigure or pre shadow events and circumstances in people in the New Testament. So we would hold a typology, but most of us would disagree with allegory ization. Then in the Roman Catholic system there is an authoritative teaching office called the Magisterium. The Magisterium is responsible for providing the official interpretation of both the Bible and church tradition. Protestants. We evangelicals emphasize the illumination of the Holy Spirit that as we read and study the Bible, as we meditate on the Bible and seek to interpret it, we ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate our minds that we might rightly understand it, and we ask the Spirit to soften our hearts, that we would be ready for application. We employ sound interpretive principles as we seek to understand narratives. Pauline Letters, for example, poetry, prophetic writings. And when we get stuck, or when we need help to understand somewhat more difficult passages of Scripture, we turn to our pastors, right? Who have the responsibility of being pastors, teachers, and they help us understand scripture. So in terms of key differences between Catholic theology and Protestant theology, there are some disagreements about scripture, tradition and interpretation. Another area of key differences concerns the image of God, sin and Mary. Let's focus, first of all, on the image of God for Roman Catholic theology. The image of God is largely focused on reason or rationality and free will.


What does it mean to be made in the divine image? It is to be rational people who possess some sort of free will. Roman Catholic theology makes the difference between the image of God, which I've just described, and then the divine likeness, which are supernatural gifts that were added on to the basic image of God. The supernatural gifts of original holiness and immortality in Adam and Eve original state, the way God created Adam and Eve, he made it such that their reason or the rationality would govern their desires and bodily passions. What happens with sin is that these gifts of original holiness and immortality are lost, and therefore the desires and bodily passions of Adam and Eve arose and took over the place of rationality or reason, and therefore plunged Adam and Eve into a situation of corruption. So that's the Roman Catholic view of the image of God in the likeness of God. And then this struggle within Adam and Eve. For many evangelicals, the image of God would refer to the whole person, body, soul and spirit. Our entire being is created in the image of God, which means that we reflect God. We're like mirrors of God, so that when we look at one another, we get a small glimpse of what God is like. And then we also represent God in the world in which we live. By engaging in the expansion of the human race. Be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth. And we also engage in vocation as we seek to build civilization. So subdue the earth and exercise dominion over it. Some key concerns of Protestants. First, the Catholic Church's view of Adam and Eve's state of original holiness or original justice by which their soul or reason functioned to govern their passions and their body.


This is not a biblical concept. There's no hint whatsoever in Scripture that there was a latent struggle within the very heart and soul of Adam and Eve as created by God. This view also this Roman Catholic view of the divine image having to do specifically with human reason. I think most evangelicals would say that's rather reductionistic. Second, the Genesis creation story gives no hint of the latent disturbance within Adam and Eve that needed to be controlled by their higher part, their rationality, the reason keeping in check their lower parts. God has designed us rather to be holistic people, and so we function body, soul, spirit, whatever your view is, but we function holistically. And there never was a time in which Adam and Eve had this latent struggle. In terms of sin and its consequences. Yes, Roman Catholicism believes in original sin, but they don't see it as devastatingly destructive as most Protestants do. And Roman Catholics divide sins into two categories mortal sins and venial sins. Mortal sins would be premeditated sins. They would be heinous crimes against one or more of the Ten Commandments. They're done without any reference whatsoever to God and his will and mortal sins plunged the Catholic faithful into a state of sinfulness. And they can only be removed from that state by going to the sacrament of penance, Another topic to which will return and then venial sins would be any kind of sin that doesn't mount up to a mortal sin. Maybe it's not premeditated. Maybe it's done with some reference to God in his will. Maybe it's not a heinous crime, a heinous sin against one or more of the Ten Commandments. Venial sins, Catholic faithful don't need to go to the sacrament of penance to be forgiven of their venial sins.


So there's these two categories of sins within Catholic theology. For many Protestants we hold to original sin in terms of a damning guilt that every human being coming into this world bears the guilt of Adam because of our solidarity with him. And we also have a corrupt nature. Many Protestants, many evangelicals, would describe the corruption of that nature in terms of being totally depraved and totally unable to save oneself. Total depravity has to do with every aspect of human nature being infected with sin. Our mind, our emotions, our will, our motivations are purchasing. Every aspect has been tainted by sin. Thus, total inability means no human being in this fallen condition can make the first move toward God. We can't desire salvation. We can't make ourselves ready for salvation and so forth. In terms of the role of Mary, Roman, Catholics emphasize a number of elements. For example, Mary was predestined to become the mother of our Lord. We see this in Genesis 315. We see this in Isaiah 714. So she, in a very unique way, was chosen before the foundations of this world in order to be the mother of Jesus Christ, Roman Catholic C and Eve Mary parallel that just as Eve through her disobedience brought about sin. So Mary the second Eve through who through her obedience, brings about or contributes to salvation. Mary was born without sin, conceived without sin. This is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. In order to be well prepared to become the mother of our Lord. Mary was conceived without sin, lived her entire life, without sin. When Gabriel, the Angel made the announcement that she would become the mother of Jesus, she responded with the perfect obedience of faith. She lived her entire life without sin, as exemplified by her perpetual virginity.


She was a virgin her entire life. We see her in Scripture suffering at the cross. Roman Catholic theology would say she is with Jesus suffering there, and she plays some kind of role in the work of her son for salvation at the end of her days, at her death, because she had never seen her body is not sloughed off and put in a grave or a tomb. Rather, her body and body was assumed into heaven such that she never went underwent corruption. This would be the Roman Catholic theology of Mary. Protestants evangelicals do hold that Mary was think a talk was an early term used by the early church to affirm that the one whom Mary bore in her womb and then gave birth to was fully God. So theotokos she's the God bearer. A statement about her son, which then morphs into the Roman Catholic theology, which emphasizes her motherly role with Jesus Christ. We also evangelicals and Protestants bless Mary for her obedience. We would not have the son incarnate without her. So her obedience then becomes an example for us to follow. In terms of other areas, there are key differences between Catholic and Protestant theology when it comes to the church and its sacraments. So the Roman Catholic Church considers itself to be one wholly Catholic and apostolic evangelicals and Protestants for the most part, would agree with that. But then Roman Catholic Church insists that it is the sole church of Jesus Christ. That is, there is only one true one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that is the Roman Catholic Church. Indeed, Roman Catholic theology denies that evangelicals have churches. Rather, Roman Catholic theology insists that we gather in ecclesial communities, but they're not actually churches because there's only one true Church of Jesus Christ, which is the Roman Catholic Church.


Of course, we also know that Roman Catholicism emphasizes the papacy. There is a hierarchy with the pope at the head of the church. Protestants, evangelicals could agree that the church is one holy Catholic and apostolic. We we all understand those terms, grounding them more biblically. And then at the time of the Reformation, we emphasize the Protestant reformers like Luther and Calvin emphasize that in addition to the church being one wholly Catholic and apostolic, it's also characterized by either two or three marks that we can tell a true church by two or three marks, two marks, the preaching of the Word of God, preaching of the gospel and hearing with with obedience and faith and the two sacraments or ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. Other reformers added a third mark of the true church, which was church discipline. So there is a diversity of opinion, a view in theology between the Roman Catholic concept of the church and the Protestant or evangelical concept of the church. What about the sacraments? Well, first of all, do we call these rights? Are it these celebrations that we do on a regular basis in our churches? Do we call them sacraments or do we call them ordinances? Are there seven sacraments as there are in the Roman Catholic Church, or are there only two sacraments or ordinances as they are in our Protestant churches? The seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church. Baptism Confirmation. The Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the sick, Holy orders and matrimony for Protestants or Evangelicals are to sacraments, ordinances are Baptism and the Lord's Supper. How are these sacraments valid or effective? According to the Roman Catholic Church. They are effective. They are valid. Ex operate or borrow a Latin expression, which simply means by the work worked.


That is when a priest sprinkles water on the head of a three month old baby girl. That baby girl is cleansed from her original sin. She is born again or regenerated, and she's incorporated into the Church of Jesus Christ. It doesn't make any difference the moral or spiritual quality of the priest who performs that baptismal sacrament. The baptism works simply because it was administered by a Catholic priest or for us Protestants. We would deny that the sacraments ordinances are valid ex operate Alvarado, but they are to be embraced by faith in accordance with scriptural instruction. According to Roman Catholic theology, grace for salvation is initiated by the Sacrament of baptism. But grace itself is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of His own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul, to heal it of sin and to sanctify. This is the Roman Catholic view. After baptism, them the other sacraments continue to mediate grace for justification. The second sacrament in the Catholic Church is confirmation, which completes baptismal grace. This sacrament binds those who have already been baptized, binds them more closely to the church, and grants them special strength from the Holy Spirit to engage in mission. The grace of the Sacrament of the Eucharist augments the Catholic Faithful's Union with Christ. It discourages them from sinning and much more. Thus, the grace of salvation is closely linked to the reception of grace through the Church's sacraments. The Sacrament of Penance provides grace for the Catholic faithful who have committed mortal sin by this sacrament. They are absolved of their sin and once again experience saving grace. As for the sacrament of Holy Orders, the Roman Catholic Church's Apostolic Ministry is grounded on the doctrine of apostolic succession. That is, Jesus Christ delegated his authority to his apostles, who in turn delegated their authority to their successors, the bishops of the Catholic Church, and thus the priests and bishops today are part of this apostolic succession and holy orders is the sacrament by which men are ordained and become part of this apostolic succession, part of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.


The sacrament of matrimony is directed toward the salvation of others through consecrating spouses for their duties and for the dignity of their marital state. So this sacrament of matrimony confers grace on a new husband and a new wife. Anointing of the sick is the right by which Christ has willed that his church continue in the power of the Holy Spirit. His work of healing and salvation, even among her own members specifically this sacrament, is the Church's way of commending those who are ill or perhaps even on the verge of death to the suffering and glorified Lord, that he may raise them up and save them. Overall, through these seven sacraments, sacramental grace is infused into the Catholic faithful. This infused grace then transforms their very nature, enabling them to engage in good works, cooperating with that grace, engaging in good works, and thereby enabling them to merit eternal life. This transformation is a process that continues throughout their entire life. Grace operates by giving birth to the inner person. It effects the sanctification of his or her whole being and makes the person inwardly just. This Catholic notion of infused grace for inward renewal differs completely from the Protestant idea of God imputing the righteousness of Jesus Christ to sinful human beings by which He then saves them. One final key difference between Catholic theology and Protestant theology The doctrine of salvation is salvation, as it is in the Roman Catholic Church justification, which is not only the forgiveness of sins, but also sanctification and the renewal of the inner person. And this takes place by the infusion of grace or is salvation, according to Protestantism, according to the evangelical theology, is justification a forensic declaration God declares a fallen sinful human being not guilty but righteous instead not because she is righteous in herself, but because God credits the righteousness of Jesus Christ to her account.


Therefore, she has a holy standing before the Lord. So what is the notion of justification? The two traditions differ significantly. As for good works, the Roman Catholic theology emphasizes good works as enabling the careful Catholic faithful to merit eternal life. Protestant Theology. Evangelical theology has no such concept, but views good works as the fruit of God, declaring us not guilty but righteous instead the fruit of regeneration. The fact that God has given us a new nature that loves to please Him and serve others through good works. How about perseverance and assurance of salvation? Roman Catholic theology denies the perseverance of genuine believers because at any time the Catholic faithful can fall away from the faith by committing mortal sin. And when they commit mortal sin, they lose their saving grace. And if they die in that state, they would perish. They would be damned forever. Therefore, Roman Catholic faithful cannot possess the assurance of salvation. They can't know for sure that at the end of their life, by cooperating with the grace of God, they've engaged in sufficient good works in order to actually merit eternal life. They don't know that many Protestants, many evangelicals, affirm not only the perseverance of genuine believers that all true believers are in Christ and will remain in Christ firmly till the very end. But they also affirm assurance of salvation, that subjective confidence that we are genuine believers and we will remain so throughout our life. Finally, purgatory. The Roman Catholic Church believes that for the Catholic faithful who have fallen short of perfect purity and holiness, when they die, their soul goes to purgatory. Not to hell, not to heaven. Purgatory would be a state then in which that dross, that still remaining sinfulness would be purged would be removed, at which point then their souls would go to heaven.


Purgatory then is necessary for the Catholic faithful to be fully cleansed from their sin. Protestant Theology. Evangelical theology does not hold to purgatory because it's not necessary, given the biblical notion of justification. If we're declared not guilty, but righteous instead perfectly righteous because we have the righteousness of Christ credited to our account, then there's no need for the in fact, it's not possible for us to need more cleansing from our sin. This then, has been an overview of what unites and divides Roman Catholics and Protestants. Even 500 years after this reformation. I have a question and you may are going to be talking about it later on, but the difference between infused grace and imputed righteousness. So in infuse Greece, it is a lifelong process. That is the tool by which a person is purified or saved to transform, transform, transform, transformed. In the final stage is purgatory. If they've not sufficiently progressed. Okay, so there are people that in the Catholic theology, there are people that don't have to go to purgatory. Okay. All right. So we'll come back to that. Okay. Thank you.