Business as Mission - Lesson 1

Spiritual Foundations

Establishing a profitable business is one way to gain entrance and have influence in countries that are otherwise closed and/or hostile to the Gospel. It's important to depend on Christ and have an attitude of stewardship as you make decisions for the direction of the business.

Taught by a Team
Taught by a Team
Business as Mission
Lesson 1
Watching Now
Spiritual Foundations

Spiritual Foundations

A. Introductions

B. Steward attitude vs. owner attitude

C. Attitudes toward business

D. Key Lessons

  • Bill Job founded a company in China in 1988 as a Foreign Invested Enterprise. Meixia International produces Tiffany and fine glass for export. His vision is to transform people and communities through profitable business. Hundreds of Meixia employees have become believers in Jesus Christ, churches have been planted and compassionate ministries have started, including a program to hire the disabled.

    Bill Mcleod is founder and executive director of Mission ConneXion Northwest.

    Establishing a profitable business is one way to gain entrance and have influence in countries that are otherwise closed and/or hostile to the Gospel. It's important to depend on Christ and have an attitude of stewardship as you make decisions for the direction of the business.


  • God wanted my business to be done well. He doesn't do anything sloppily. He wants to own it, direct it, as one of the systems he has established for the universe by which the kingdom of God enters into our experience on a day to day basis.

  • When you think kingdom, you think about rescuing people. Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. The opportunity to be involved in rescue as we ourselves have been rescued, "helicoptered" out of the kingdom of darkness...why wouldn't we want to be part of that?

In this three-session course, Bill MacLeod, founder of Mission ConneXion Northwest, interviews Bill Job, founder and president of Meixia International, a thriving business in China. With the core conviction that eternal things are more important than temporal things, Bill describes how through his business programs hundreds of Meixia’s employees have become believers in Jesus Christ, churches have been planted and compassionate ministries have started, including a program to hire disabled workers from the local community. Approximately 1.5 hours.

Business as Mission

Bill MacLeod & Bill Job


Spiritual Foundations

Lesson Transcript


Bill MacLeod Hi, I'm Bill MacLeod. I'm the executive director, founder of Mission Connection Northwest. And this year we had a tremendous emphasis on business as mission. We've had that emphasis for some time. But why Business is mission, you know, why is that important to what we're doing with Mission Connection, Maybe what the church ought to be doing and, you know, visit Mission Connection is a reflection of, you know, the opportunities that the church can get involved in. And so I would say as a Western seminary grad, as somebody went through Bible college and came to Western, when I think of business mission, I'm not a business guy, but I sure love missions. I sure love mobilizing the church to be more effective at reaching people for Christ, especially in the places that are most unreached in the world and some of those unreached places. Business is how you get in. And, you know, so, gosh, I think of scripture and, you know, first of all, I think of today Christianity is taking off in some of those places where, you know, we would have thought it was like hard to penetrate. But Jesus is going through some of the things that are happening, You know, this emerging role of a VAM, we call it business as mission bam, creating self-sustaining, in other words, non independent upon the West type structures, churches that earn the respect of their community. You're going to hear about that today from Bill Job. By creating employment, providing goods services people want, creating a natural venue for real discipleship. I mean, come on, people are people. What's going on overseas and these places that they look different, they act different, they dress different. They you know, they're just like us. They're just people, people that need Jesus. And so, I mean, you don't have to have an MBA. Maybe it's going to help you to not have an MBA when you start thinking about, you know, having an impact as a church or as a business person. Mission Connection Northwest has had a BAM track for about six years. And, you know, you know, our traditional role is that we're recruiting people for missions from, let's say, 10% of the evangelical churches who are typically missions minded versus the 80% of even evangelical churches who are in business, many of whom would deeply desire to serve the Lord through business. So what I'm saying is there's a little bit of a disconnect. We have the people like me that went through seminary, Bible college, and, you know, maybe we feel a calling, but there's business people that, you know, they feel like calling, too, but it doesn't seem like it works for them. Bill's going to talk about that in a minute. But from Scripture, I see the way God teaches us the scripture that he uses ordinary people. We have a Ephesians 416, the whole body working together, the whole body, not just the religious people, you know, not the people that are religiously trained, the whole body of Christ, head, eyes, feet. Then we see reformation doctrine of the priesthood, of believer. So we see that. We see that that's all there in Scripture. See, Peter was a businessman. Lydia was a business woman, seller of purple. She was a salesperson selling purple stuff. Farmers do business, you know, they're making an impact history. I mean, you can talk about them Arabians. If any of you have not taken the perspectives on the world Christian movement, of course you got it. If you get that, you'll still get all this that I'm talking about. Put a little plug on there for perspectives. But, you know, history shows us that, you know, as people went out, they didn't all go out like priests and so forth. They went out like the Arabians. They were doing business as they went. And we could say Apostle Paul was a tent maker. We all know that. You know, that's how we get started. But it was for the purpose of winning people to Christ. Human nature represent recognize the value of Bam. We see the dignity that comes to the individual. You can't hear Bill Jobe and not hear how much the individual worth of people that would took all of us would seem worthless. The people that he rubbed shoulders with, the mentors that he calls out as the mentors in his business are some of the the people that we would would never take a second look at. But they're the people that Jesus took a second and a third look at. And Bill Jones got talks about that creates wealth. Mary mentioned that rewards incentive industry, empowering communities where it is. We're going to hear that in the community he's in in China. It allows individuals and communities to exchange poverty for opportunity. And that's needed in our country. But, you know, they're ready for it in some of these place helps the church to be in the center of the restoring of the order. You know, a church gets that in its DNA company, gets it in state. It allows the church to be not the center of activity for itself to puff itself up, but to be a place where we're moving product. And the product is change lives. And it's happening through business and restoring order and hope. And then as you hear from Bill Joe of Compassion Ministries that meet real, tangible needs flow out of that atmosphere, that experience when the needs of individuals and communities are met. I think the pilgrims coming to this country that they started with kind of a socialistic system and it didn't work was only as they said, hey, you know, take care of your own property. Then all these other things happen over the years. That mission Connection Northwest, we've had some great representatives of Bam. They may have been here and they didn't realize they were really great representatives of Bam. But Peter Greer with Hope International, he helps those in developing countries create business enterprises and savings accounts in communities where there are no banks. So that again, is empowering the people. Peter Greer Josephine Fuso right here in Portland, Ford Edge International. He is going to Haiti, helping Haitians, giving them opportunities to create wealth by building like chicken houses so they can, you know, have hens lay eggs that they sell the eggs and this whole thing. Brian Ficker He wrote the book When Helping Hurts. He was here last year and he goes into developing countries engaging meaningful enterprise that corresponds to the natural opportunities, you know, not introducing new things into the into the culture, but using the natural things that are there to help the people make a living. And then John Morton working right here also with Business Professional Network, provides North American businessmen opportunities in developing countries to mentor young Christian entrepreneurialism in the majority world for training, provide capital for loans and result in growing businesses and new jobs. Those are some of the things that I see as the executive director of Mission Connection and how, you know how thrilled I am that we get to, in a very small way, introduce this into the DNA, into the bloodstream of the local church here in the northwest, hopefully throughout the country. Well, Bill, good to see you.


Bill Job: Great to see you, Bill.


Bill MacLeod: Hey, I found out, you know, both of us are graduates of Western Seminary, right? And you came through the hallowed halls, you know, many years before me. But it was great when we first met because, you know, the Lord has led me to do different things. And now, of course, leading mission connection Northwest. And we've had an emphasis on business as mission and our workshops. We never actually had a speaker in the plenary sessions. And so we just felt like, you know, this was a year and we were so thrilled when you were able to come because I thought, here is a guy knowing your story, you I want to I want you to tell your story. But who went through seminary like me was called The China. And if we had been a chapel at the same time, you would have said, I'm called to be a missionary. And yet, you know, your journey took a totally different trajectory when you left here, and as many people do. And so I'm just intrigued to find out how to God lead you. When you left Western Seminary, how did how did you get to the point you came to Western and then how did he lead you to go into business, this mission type activity?


Bill Job:  Well, I became a believer in 69 and right away came across a church just up the street from the one I went to and began to really be blessed by the guys that were teaching there. And they went to a particular seminary. And I realized that seminary required four years and I thought it's too important to commit four years to seven. So I realized there is another one up here that we went to that only required three. And so I actually chose that for that reason and came up in the mid seventies and went through all that. While I knew that the Lord had assigned me to go living in China and it was something that was clear and I was aware of it. But very often you'll get that kind of information from the Lord. But the timing isn't yet to cause you to act on it, so you just get ready and prepare. After school, I went to my hometown of Tennessee, stayed there for a number of years, and then in 87 had a chance to go to China. Our basic plan at that time, because you couldn't have your own company, was to do two years of language work and then try to get a job with some American company that wanted to be in China. I knew. Is teaching English, which is kind of what everybody did then, really had no appeal to me. And I just sort of chose to do what I wanted to do. And I feel like it was in hindsight, it was definitely the right decision, was the right way to go. But I got to tell you, when I landed over there, virtually every one of my ideas was wrong about what I was going to do and how I was going to do it.


Bill MacLeod: And now that probably relates to a lot of people who are watching this right now and thinking, Gee, I can relate to that. I can relate. We relate more to, you know, maybe a parent failure initially, at least. And so, I mean, that's that that that just draws me in even more. I want to know, so what do you do? You fail at these things and then you're obviously you're leaning on the Lord now. Yeah. And so how did you go.


Bill Job:  From what again, kind of by hindsight, you can see what happened. And if I were to try to describe it, I would say that Jesus has not given up his role as the sniper. We have a lot of really, really wonderful programs to help us do that. We call them discipleship programs, but none of them are actually as fine tuned to any individual as he can be. And so I think we ought to go through as many of those things as we can, but assume we have a graduated and allow him to come back and teach us on whatever scale or timing or schedule is available, the things that he wants us to know in order to be able to execute his will for us.


Bill MacLeod: When you get over there, I mean, you must have had some kind of background in technology or something. So what what was your background?


Bill Job:  My undergraduate degree before I came here was in philosophy. Oh, now my take on philosophy is it doesn't really qualify you for anything, but it doesn't disqualify you very that either. Right. And it was essentially trying to learn how to think so that I could understand the gospel or not check my mind out at the same time.


Bill MacLeod: Right now, just a curious curiosity from my point of view. When you were in seminary, did you have this sense, Hey, I want to serve God, I want to I want to work for him? Is that was that a motivating drive for.


Bill Job:  You, didn't you? Yeah.


Bill MacLeod: Yeah.


Bill Job:  I mean, I think we all did. It's the kind of vocabulary that we used. Yeah. I mean, it's a great motive. I mean, it's a great target, but it just doesn't work.


Bill MacLeod: And so something changed when you.


Bill Job:  Go to Jesus. Showed me the Bible now versus like, look, apart from me, you can do nothing that kind of folded into, I want to serve God. And I realize there's a conflict there with the motive is good, but the method isn't. So it's not. It's a good target, but you're not going to deliver the goods.


Bill MacLeod: Because the sentence says I yes, want to serve God. And we would in America, we would say nothing wrong with that. That's right. Because in America, what the two highest values are, what.


Bill Job:  Freedom and independence, the pioneer. He's the hero in our society.


Bill MacLeod: But it takes a pioneer to do what you did in China. See? So as an American, I say, well, that's awesome. And that relates. But I suppose the back story is, you know, I mean, the person that saves someone's life, they say you're a hero and they put the camera on them. He says, No, I'm not a hero. And they say, Well, that's what all the heroes say. Yeah, but you actually have something different. You have a perspective that really touched me, not that it was unknown to me, but the way you, you know, the way you portrayed it that once you got there and you started listening Jesus more than the discipleship books or whatever, you know, what was was Jesus say to you?


Bill Job:  Well, one of the first things that really helped was finding agreement with the idea that within my life there is this thing called my heart in the gospel. The story is I get a new one. I had an old one and it wasn't very reliable. All kinds of sin and selfishness came out, could not be trusted, but Jesus provided a new one, whether it's the old one, circumcised and made new, or going from stone to flesh. I'm not too worried about that detail. I just know I've got a good heart now and I begin to learn to listen to it. And so when I chose sort of what company do I want to do, I just said, What would I like to do? I'd like to do something in stained glass. No experience in it.


Bill MacLeod: Why stained.


Bill Job:  Glass? I don't know. I just wanted to do it. I thought it'd be good. I think it's something for me. And I think, yes, he gives us the handoffs, the baton. The communication is in our heart. And so I had to kind of move away from my past training, which says you can't do you can't trust it to admit there's a new one in there somewhere. And I want to get familiar enough with that that I can begin to receive through that place some direction from the Lord.


Bill MacLeod: Couple of things come to mind. The first is, you know, the versus says, you know, God to give you the desires of your heart. Right. And I think in the old days, I would look at that and I think that I have these desires. Right. And he's going to kind of fan the flame. But then, you know, the more you go on with the Lord, you realize, no, I have nothing. I've got a blank slate. Yeah. He throws something in front of me that I choose to become, but it's kind of like he makes me hungry. And then you put some food. So I go over here at the foods there, you know, and then that becomes a desire on my own. But it's all him, isn't it? Yeah.


Bill Job:  Yeah. That's what you end up finding out now. Like, for instance, I went with the desire, the thought, the idea that I wanted to serve God with a company. I wanted to get my company started. Now, when I actually went there, it was not technically possible to have your own business if you're an American within a couple of months and you can't, you pay attention to these kinds of things. Within a couple of months, the laws changed and they said, Well, now it's possible for a foreigner like me to have his own business, not be a joint venture, you could actually control things. And I said, You mean like control who we hire, how much you pay, what the quality level is? And they go, theoretically. And I said, What do you mean theoretically? They said, Well, nobody's ever done it before. So it's all theory right now, but we think we can do that.


Bill MacLeod: So. So you go in the open up this window. Yeah. You know, you walk through the thing because all you're thinking at the time is, well, it wouldn't hurt, right, to have like a credential. Yeah. And, you know, I probably won't use it because I'll be a missionary or whatever. And then. And then tell it. Tell me what happens as you go on and you say you're meeting with the dignitary over there and.


Bill Job:  Oh, you mean the ambassador. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we get this company started. We actually plan on it, taking a year and a half to get the application approved because that's what they said. And it gets done in 30 days.


Bill MacLeod: Nine months.


Bill Job:  And now we're up and launch. And honestly, we were not ready. We didn't have any money, we didn't have any product, we didn't have any market, we didn't have experience. But we had yet the opportunity to get your foot in the door and the permit and a permit, and so you could legally begin to learn this stuff. So we thought we're going to make all kinds of mistakes. How do you survive? When are you going to make all kinds of mistakes? And with that, let's just stay really small and make, um, let's just go.


Bill MacLeod: For, I think, right there, freeze frame right there. I think all of us need to hear that message, whether we're in business, no matter what we're doing, we're in the pastorate. We need to hear that, you know, God's the real freedom comes in Christ. And if we could just say, Let's make some mistakes, then we learn.


Bill Job:  Yeah, but we spent in my background way too much time trying to reduce risk. Yeah. Finding a safe life. Yeah. I really don't think Jesus is a saint. Yeah, I think he is a risky guy to hang around. And I think if you start really connecting with what he has for you, it's going to challenge. It's going to it's it's safe. It's the safest place in the world. And if it's what he's got for you. Yeah, absolutely. But it will not be safe when you look around. Yeah. We've got all of our heroes there in the lion's den said, you know, take it out on Tiger or lions barehanded and, you know, take it down Golden Giants and you're always surrounded by enemies very commonly.


Bill MacLeod: Well, you know, I think of my experience working with Luis Palau overseas, and we'd talk about evangelism and you'd have people show up and then there'd be certain people probably from my theological background say, well, we're going to have a training first, you know, because it's not, you know, No. And so if we do the training, then we go out and I remember some church asked me to do some kind of angel training. So but we're not going to do it unless we actually plan to go out. And they were scared to death. But when they did it, the excitement of doing it.


Bill Job:  Far.


Bill MacLeod: Outweighed all the training that I felt we had to go through. Because you're right. And that's your experience that you would you want to just get in and do something?


Bill Job:  Yeah, I think I think that's right. When we were over there, there was this sense that you had to do something. I mean, we didn't have any group supporting us. We didn't have any advisors. We didn't have anybody with any experience who could guide us in all this stuff. We're just grabbing on day by day with this clear sense that he's leading us into it, but no clear sense about where it's going to land. And I think probably that's because I had too many ideas that were confused or not helpful. I don't think the Lord is in a hurry. You mean it's going to take some time and and get me kind of back on track, step by step, Like I did not have a vision statement, but if I'd had. Had one, I think it would have been something like, I want to go overseas and serve God with my company and use my teaching ministry to benefit the church. Finding influential people to disciple.


Bill MacLeod: Don't preach. That's good.


Bill Job:  I think I could get it past any organist. Yeah. Yeah. He showed me. There's eight major theological flaws of that.


Bill MacLeod: Tell me what those eight are, because I can't see anything wrong with that statement. Well, the.


Bill Job:  First one starts with I. Oh, yeah, that's right. I'm going to do this. And what he helped me to see is his deal is he wants to do things together. Going back to what we said earlier with the independence theme and the American culture is I want to independently act and impress God. I want to do things for him. And he's really clarified the field by saying, you know, apart from me, there just isn't anything you can do that I'm interested in. Not a thing. I don't want that from you. I'm not going to be impressed by. I don't want you to try it. You're not going to find it successful. What I really want is the relationship. I want to live through you. I want us to do things together. So now it's not me doing that. I just want to live with him and whatever activity he's up to. Yeah, I wanted to serve him with my company. Now, how many people out there, great Christians with good hearts, want to serve God with their companies or want to serve God with their families? You know that area of influence with him. But in my case, he had to finally show me really through the talents in the minors. Those stories they talked about. It really wasn't mine to serve him went Amen. And when it was mine in the earlier four or five, six years, it was not an easy, quick process for me. It was like eight, ten years to get on stupid. You know, it it took a while in the earlier years, it was my company and I was going to really serve God. That's going to hang on and I'm fine. And we had death threats against my children and wife and me, and we had people stealing and we had people, you know, doing all kinds of things. And, you know, and I'm just fine and I'm just hanging on. And and it was actually all unnecessary. A lot of that was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm bearing the responsibility for this company when it's actually not mine to bear the responsibility for it.


Bill MacLeod: You know, that really encourages me because I've had, you know, a similar pilgrimage, I guess, if you will, with Mission Connection. Yes, that, I mean, I know it's God's, but when I hear you talk about how the Lord has helped you through like over worry. Yeah. And I would say most people that are listening, if they're business owners, they get the worry part. Yeah. Yeah. They're responsible for all that. Yeah. But even if they're not, you know, if it's, if it's a mother and got kids and, you know, like you're afraid that, you know, let them in the risk factor and or a student that you know, maybe has some debt but they really want to serve God and they're afraid yeah can I step out you know and you know, you've really affirmed some of the things that I know, but I just need to hear it again to know that there's one other person that really sees that talk to me about like, you know, being afraid and like some of the stories of things that really came out. The real business people face all the time.


Bill Job:  Okay? One that occurred just a year or two ago was that we had a particular production line, a new production line, and we had some people in place that we hoped would basically take over the company. I could maybe step out of the active leadership of it, and we really were all for them. We wanted this to happen and so we kind of gave them a wide opportunity and for about a year really didn't interact with it very much. But after the year I went and looked at the production facility and it it really didn't look good to me. And so I asked the customer that we had whose orders were going to increase 500% for the next year. Are you guys comfortable with this? And they go, We don't think you can do it. And so we're going to have to find some other suppliers. And I'm thinking, that's not good for us. Would you give me two months to fix this problem? Because they were entering a six month downtime, so they have six months of activity and six months of rest and they could afford to. And he said, okay, I'll give you two months. So then I went to our managers and I said to the general manager, On a scale of 1 to 10, where do you think we are? He said about 310.


Bill MacLeod: Being the highest. Yeah.


Bill Job:  And I went to the guy educated in production management. He said about one and a half, somewhere between one and two. Oh. And I said, Okay, guys, I'm all for you. We can pull this out, but it has got to be pulled out, see? And in the old days I would just be panicking. Yeah, because the pressure on you. Yeah. Who else is there, Right. Well, there is someone else, but we tend. Did you forget that? I was pretty much accepting the concepts now, and so I'm not too worried about it. And so I say we have eight weeks in order to get this from a three to an eight, in order to stay in business, or we're going to lose millions of dollars. Yeah. And so they then think about it, pray about it, and they both resign in the next in my mind.


Bill MacLeod: Now, you would think, well, that was that did you feel like good thing, bad thing.


Bill Job:  I thought he is up to something.


Bill MacLeod: Right.


Bill Job:  The phrase that comes to my mind is Aslan's on the move. You guys. Right? Yeah. And I would think that I would rather not have the workload. I'd rather they step up and for their own benefit, their own welfare, they step up and they find the Lord. And that's, you know. Right. But they chose not to. So I go to the Lord and we have this. I think some people might think it's disrespectful. I don't think it's a disrespectful relationship. It's all right, buddy. He would do that. But and now that I know it's your company, you know, Yes, Lord, you have got a problem. You've got your manager just walked out on you, but what are you do? And so I he often responds in my heart with questions. And so the question he responded with was, Wow, you want to fix it? Hey, go on, man. You know how to get me. I do. I hate to quit. Yeah, I just hate to quit on something. So I said, Yeah, but I got two major problems. No money to fix it with and no ideas. I don't know how to do this. And so two days later, I get a phone call. It's a guy who was born in our city. He's a successful businessman living in Florida. And he calls me up and says, We need to have breakfast tomorrow morning. I'm in town. Can I see you? I know what I meant. And maybe one other time. So we go to breakfast, and during breakfast, he says, I get the strongest feeling we're supposed to help you. Do you need a loan or investment or something? Is this something about a new production line? Does that make any sense to you? Oh, okay, Lord, I got it. You know, this is how this is an aspect of God communicating with his kids. Yeah. He's not far away. It's in him that we live and move and have our being the scriptures that you know. So we just don't recognize his voice.


Bill MacLeod: Well, you know, I think sometimes we can go to a retreat or something when everything the water's calm and you say, Yeah, I'm going to be that man. I'm going to trust God. And then when, you know, after the retreat, when life takes over and it's Monday morning, you know, and the pressures come, I mean, I can identify with. Oh, God, help me. Yeah.


Bill Job:  Help me. Yeah.


Bill MacLeod: And, you know, the Lord loves those words. It's better than I got it covered.


Bill Job:  Lord, I think it's very clear.


Bill MacLeod: But. But when you say, okay, Lord, I know you're going to help me, but I love the part about this. You got a problem, Lord. Yeah. And the idea of, you know, I'm just a steward. Yeah. And. And so then you wait. I think, you know, going back to the freedom and independence. Yeah, I mean, I know I have a hard time being still and waiting because we're used to things happening faster than microwave speed. Yeah, And and, of course, in China, you're blessed because you, you, you don't get.


Bill Job:  All the sudden you want to have enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


Bill MacLeod: Now, go back to something I thought of. You were suspicious, weren't you? Of business. And talk to me about that.


Bill Job:  I pastored for two years and I had some business guys in my church, and if I was really honest, I would probably say of the successful ones, I might have been a little jealous. Suspicious. Kind of wondering where the commitment was. They're spending so much time out in the world was the way I thought about it, but I really needed them for the budget. We're not going to make financial commitments without guys making money giving money. But I was suspicious. It wasn't a good feeling, even though I had many really good friends in business. And so when I went to China and had a chance to get this business, license.


Bill MacLeod: Tables turn on them.


Bill Job:  Yeah, but I was still thinking of it as access. This helps me have an identity. This helps me to have a reason to get a visa and all those kinds of things. But I was kind of wanting to rush through the 8 to 5 timeframe, get to after work so I could do something important in my life.


Bill MacLeod: Let me stop you right there and just interject this, that as I began to see the potential for business as mission, that what it's already doing in terms of impacting the world for Christ. Right. You know, I just said mission connection has to have a business's mission emphasis. And so I began to connect with, like my friend John Wharton, business professional networking, Marshall Stevens, other business as mission type guys who maybe had worked or whatever. And and as I talk with some people, not these two guys, but as I as I kind of talk with people, the business guys, Oh, man, you think you were suspicious of the business. They were ticked off. They were angry at things that they had been through. Because even though I mean, I can relate more to your story than I can because I'm not a business guy. Yeah, but you know this like.


Bill Job:  You said, I'm not a business. I'm not. I'm just.


Bill MacLeod: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not. You know, I'm probably more a went through seminary pastorate, Bible college, all that. But these guys you know they had to make bank you know and they were focused and as I dealt you know beneath the you know the reactionary anger they you know it was like you were saying the pastor wants me to fund his programs. And so in my worldview, I'd say, well, boy, sounds like you're pretty arrogant that you don't want to fund the pastors. Pro bono goes back to that thing that you were saying the business guy wants relationship. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know that. That's with the breakdown. So in the same way as it is vertically. Same way as horizontally. Yeah. And, and I realize they're being disenfranchized. Yeah. Because they weren't. Being included in the process and that the pastor's ideas might actually get better. If he had the business guy, he wouldn't have to feel like it's all or nothing. It's the relationships. All right.


Bill Job:  That we have learned ways to make money and to give money back to the communities. We've been able to return to the communities. We're trying to reach over $18 million in the years we've been there, just in the form of salaries. It's not gifts, but you're helping people with their livelihood, but they work for it, you know. But you have the mechanism to do that. And we've given tens of thousands of dollars away to provide for care for orphans and operations and things like that. But the money is a small part. Yeah, I would say 80% of the value, 90% of the really total values in relationships. And if you're the boss of a company, if you own can control something and you get to the point where you really do see yourself as a steward. And that might come five years after you get it here. You know, you get the theology and if you keep working at it, you might get it into your heart. But most of us have frozen in between there. You know, we know the right answer and the test, but we go to work. We still worry, you know, we still do his job for it. We haven't actually implemented it. So we truly don't worry.


Bill MacLeod: As we've looked at the spiritual side of doing business as mission. What are the key lessons that someone really should take away from this section?


Bill Job:  I learned that my biggest problem was myself. It was the constraint of that whole spiritual life system. And the more I learned to lay it down, the more I was able to perceive how much relationship Jesus wanted to have with me. In this whole process, both the Father and the Spirit. And I was unaware that he is so friendly, so involved and so warm, so interested, so caring. And he is not interested. Me being the spiritual man, being the spiritual hero, that does not impress him at all. He just he wants my surrender. And that became the key.


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