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Biblical Eldership - Lesson 2

Principles of Local Church Governance (Part 2)

God has ordained the existence of officers in the church, some of whom are charged under Christ with the leadership of the church. The leaders of the church should be people who are spiritually mature and exemplary, gifted for the ministry given to them, have a sense of divine urging, and are in harmony with the duly established leadership of the church.

John Piper
Biblical Eldership
Lesson 2
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Principles of Local Church Governance (Part 2)

Principles of Local Church Governance (pt 2)

Principle Five

Not inconsistent with this equality, God has ordained the existence of officers in the church, some of whom are charged under Christ with the leadership of the church.

1 Timothy 5:17

The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.

1 Thessalonians 5:12

But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction.

Hebrews 13:7

Remember those who led you, who spoke the Word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

Hebrews 13:17

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Acts 20:28

Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Principle Six

Under Christ and his Word, the decisive court of appeal in the local church in deciding matters of disagreement is the gathered church assembly. (This is implied, first, in the fact that the leaders are not to lead by coercion, but by persuasion and free consent [1 Peter 5:3], second, in the fact that elders may be censured [1 Timothy 5:19], and third, in the fact that Matthew 18:15-20 and 1 Corinthians 5:4 depict the gathered church assembly as the decisive court of appeal in matters of discipline).

1 Peter 5:1-3

Therefore, I exhort the elders among you. . . shepherd the flock of God among you. . . not as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.

1 Timothy 5:19-20

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

Matthew 18:15-17

If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5

In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, [you are to] deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Principle Seven

The local congregation therefore should call and dismiss its own leaders (implied in the preceding principle).

Principle Eight

The leaders of the church should be people who are spiritually mature and exemplary (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:5-9), gifted for the ministry given to them (Romans 12:6-8), have a sense of divine urging (Acts 20:28), and are in harmony with the duly established leadership of the church (Philippians 2:2).

1 Timothy 3:1-13

It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, etc [15 qualifications are listed].

Titus 1:5-9

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, etc. [18 qualifications follow].

Romans 12:6-8

Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Acts 20:28

Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Philippians 2:2

Make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.


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  • The purpose of the local church is to function as the body of Christ to advance God's kingdom in the world by displaying God's glory, God's wisdom and the authority and power of Christ. All New Testament churches had elders. We can apply scriptural principles and practical considerations to train, choose and establish a framework for the ministry of elders so they can encourage and lead individuals and the church as whole to live out their faith in the community.

  • God has ordained the existence of officers in the church, some of whom are charged under Christ with the leadership of the church. The leaders of the church should be people who are spiritually mature and exemplary, gifted for the ministry given to them, have a sense of divine urging, and are in harmony with the duly established leadership of the church.

  • Spiritual qualifications are more important than business qualifications. Terms of service should balance the need to have the most qualified leaders and the concern of burnout and stagnation. In the New Testament, other terms translated into English that also refer to the office of elder are bishop, overseer and pastor.

  • Qualifcations for elders are listed in I Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9.

This class is an engagement with the relevant New Testament texts concerning biblical eldership and church governance, and a God-glorifying pursuit of their contextual, Biblical meaning. The outcome is not merely doctrinaire abstraction, not merely culture-confronting complementarianism, not merely a re-thinking of the inherited, historical norms and traditions, but a practical, non-cumbersome outworking of church governance which aligns with Scripture and aims at meeting the myriad needs of the local expression of the body of Christ.

We are thankful for John Piper's willingness to share these lectures with us. Copyright 2014 by Desiring God Ministries. Used with Permission. For more information, please visit www.DesiringGod.org.

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Biblical Eldership

Dr. John Piper

ld225-02

Principles of Local Church Governance (Part 2)

Lesson Transcript

 

The following message is by Pastor John Piper. More information from Desiring God is available at W WW dot desiring God dot org. Principle number five. These are still principles that guide how you structure church government. Not inconsistent with this equality of the priesthood of the believer. And don't have a father and don't have a rabbi. And don't have a leader. Because you have one rabbi. And one father and one leader. Not inconsistent with that equality. God has nevertheless ordained the existence of officers in the church, some of whom are charged under Christ with the leadership of the church. So we we mustn't go the I'll say it the Plymouth Brethren round now. I mean, no, the brethren and your brethren among us. Okay, now correct me here, just help me because I, I probably put my foot in my mouth here, and they're all different kinds of brethren, but now they're no appointed preaching elders or clergy. Tell me, just give me a little one minute summary of the way leadership happens in the Brethren. Any of you. More and more the sense of me. Okay. There is an elder ship, a body of of. Of elders. And on a Sunday morning, the creation will general look to them for a word of exhortation. Or not necessarily. Could be the whole group. Yeah, but more and more you're saying, is that is that because of a sense of biblical pressure or just practicality or both? I guess I would say practicality. Yeah. I think de facto that's. Well, no, but but in reality, the Holy Spirit does that sort of thing. In any group of people, in any small group or large group, their rise to the surface, those who are more or less gifted at helping people with the word.

 

Now, what I was getting at when I when I said, brethren, and maybe my ignorance here should just keep it general, whatever the group is, that would tend to argue that the priesthood of all believers minimizes the role of leaders, which this group here says there are elders in that group. And so that's not the case with the way I was thinking about it. But if you know of any group like that, this text, these texts here, I don't think will allow us to say all believers or priests don't have anybody over anybody else. And therefore there shouldn't be any officers or anybody with any authority in the church. These texts point the other direction. So let's look at them first. Timothy 517. The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. So I would find that to be a biblical impulse, pushing a group to say that there are some who rule or govern. That's a little bit of a loaded word, isn't it? Rule probably, but a better translation that govern, oversee and some of those work hard at law go. Kai Dick Glacier. I don't know if preaching is the right translation there, not just word and teaching word and teaching. So clearly, some of those exercise, they're governing status or is not a good word. Office as teachers, not all and not all in that group have the same role in teaching, though they're all we will see to be apt to teach. But not all Labor is hard in preaching and teaching, so I find my job description right here at Bethlehem. That's who I am. I'm one of these people and I'm expected to work hard at it.

 

I'm doing this seminar because that's my job. I preach on Sunday mornings because that's my job. That's who I am right there. I find myself in that work. I'm one of these guys. I have one vote along with 17 other guys. I'm not the chairman of that group. A better name for me than senior pastor would probably be preaching elder or something like that. But we don't pick you here and we just go with the flow of tradition and that. But the de facto, that's who I am. I am one among 18. I just I get in in the fray of the discussion just like everybody else. And when we vote and talk, I don't guide the thing at that point. I vote along with everybody else. I'm assigned to do various things bring back. Reports and whatnot. And I do probably exert more influence in the church than anybody. I'm not naive about that because I talk more than anybody. I'm talking here more than anybody on Sunday. I'll talk more than anybody. I talk to more people than anybody else. So I do have more influence than anybody else at this church, except probably a few women who pray. I mean, influence. You have to be careful. Your influence, if you take it to mean that which sways a person's views. Prayer may be doing more than my teaching ever thought. So I must be very careful when I say I exert more influence here than ever. It probably I probably better qualify that by saying, as far as the influence of teaching goes, I suppose my influence is greater, but it may not be such that my agency in the Kingdom is bringing about more changes in people's lives than some unbelievably powerful prayer warriors here do.

 

First Thessalonians 512, just continuing on with texts that show that there are leaders in spite of equality. But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction. There it is. Charge over you. Instruction persist on these 512 pointing that there are leaders in the church and Paul means it to be that way. Another text in this regard. Hebrews 13 seven. Remember those who led you, who spoke the Word of God to you and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. So leaders and again few versus later in Hebrews 1317 obey your leaders and submit to them for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. So clearly there are leaders in the church, according to this text, not just everybody having the same office or rule. And then lastly, on point five, beyond guard for yourselves and for all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. So here's a group of people that came down from Ephesus gathered on the beach, and he says, You have been made overseers to shepherd the Church of God, which he purchased with his own blood. So he thinks of shepherds and sheep. Now, I'm a shepherd, but I am surely a sheep, and I am a sheep before I am a shepherd. And to me, to be a sheep is vastly more important than to be a shepherd. Can you think of a text in Luke that says something like, Be glad that you're a sheep before you're glad that you're a shepherd? No.

 

It takes something about. Exactly. Is that chapter ten when the 70 come back and they're thrilled because God worked and Jesus said, I saw Satan fall like lightning in your ministry. I think that's what he means. And yet he says, Do not rejoice at this, that the demons are subject to you. In other words, that you have powerful ministry effect. But rejoice in this along with all the other saints. Your name is written in heaven. I tell you to be the sheep of God, To be one of His lambs is 10,000 times more precious than to be a pastor. That's my ticket to heaven. Not pastoring, to have been a chosen lamb rescued from the thicket and the wolves is my joy. Principle Number six. Under Christ and his word, the decisive Court of Appeal in the local church in deciding matters of disagreement is the gathered church assembly. Here, my Baptist colors are showing. This is implied first in the fact that the leaders are not to lead by coercion, but by persuasion and free consent. First, Peter. Five three. Second, in the fact that elders may be censured, there's some process. Elders are not God. There is a way to correct elders and to rebuke elders and remove elders. And third, in the fact that Matthew 1815 to 20 and First Corinthians five four depict the gathered church assembly as the decisive court of appeal in matters of discipline. Now, those are my three pointers toward Congregational Church government. And here I say pointers and not proofs just because, frankly, I don't want to die on this hill. I really don't. I'm going to live on this hill, and I'd rather not die on this hill. There's a lot of hills I'd die on.

 

Believe me. Like I would die on the hill if for knowledge of God. But I'm not sure I would die on the hill. That a body of elders can't excommunicate somebody. We don't excommunicate by the elders ship, we excommunicate by the body. We admit through the action of the body, and we evict or dismiss either happily or unhappily through the action of the body. Now, the the three arguments I've got here, maybe there are a few more. These are the ones I'm able to pull together. The last one seems to be the most compelling to me. I'll read the text that point in this direction and they move from the weak to the strong, I think. Therefore, I exhort the elders among you shepherd the flock of God among you, not as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. There's just a spirit there that points towards. Look, the church has to be excited about this leadership and therefore there needs to be certain kind of of interaction there that might open the door to congregational life. That is congregational approval, but that doesn't prove anything as far as the governance goes. Let's look at the next one first. Timothy five, 19 to 20. Do not be do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin rebuke. Now he's talking to Timothy here. Timothy is an apostolic delegate, you might say are Legat or representative in Ephesus. Here's where your Episcopalians would say you have a pointer towards the the monarchical bishop. You have a Timothy. You have a Timothy over a city who is to discipline elders in churches. So there they would say, See, you got a bishop, you've got a district bishop.

 

Well, it's it's possible. And that's why I say I just I don't want to wage war on these issues. There are more important issues to wage, which I think you have to decide what you see here and then begin to structure your church accordingly. Or if you don't have a church, your lay person and you want to align with the church, then you've got to think through with what kind of group am I going to align if I want to be in a biblical group or a more biblical group? But I don't I don't think we should assume that Timothy is an ongoing office that should be duplicated in every district. But rather, this points towards some kind of discipline for elders, those who continue in C in rebuke. Somebody's got to have the capacity to rebuke one of these men in the presence of all. Now there is that all the people or is it all the elders so that the rest is that all the people or all the elders will also be fearful of sinning? That sounds like elders. The rest will be fearful of sinning. So at least there has to be a structure in place, whatever it is, so that earning elders can be corrected and if necessary, removed. And if they don't change. Yes, go ahead. It would be that, I suppose, had missed that congregation. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Don, I had never thought about that as a possible pointer towards congregational life. So he's assuming the kind of role that he shouldn't. He shouldn't. Yeah. Give us the text on that. We can all check it out first. Yeah. Third, John. One chapter first ten, verse ten. So check that out. Think that through as as another possible way of.

 

In any other evidences that you have that might point in this direction can share with each other. You may want to let me read let me read the last one that I have, which this one to me is the one that compels me. These two texts. Matthew 1815 to 20. If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private. If he listens to you, you have one your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you so that by the mouths of two or three witnesses, every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. You know, that's that's where we stake a lot here at Bethlehem on why we do it the way we do it. Tell it to the church. It seems like the disciplinary dimension of excommunication, which is going to what's going to happen here in the next step. If he refuses to listen to the church, let him beat you as a gentile tax collector. In other words, remove him from the rolls and treat him as though he were not a Christian any more. The church. So there are there are many churches who who interpret that to mean the church as represented by the ruling council, because it is just so dirty. It's just a dirty mess. And frankly, I would love to give it that meaning. I would love to do all of our disciplinary work at Bethlehem. I think we do it better. I think we do it more quickly. I think we do it on the people. We ought to do it. If we didn't have to time it so that you hit congregational meetings and you have to so sensitively and with sensitivity to being sued.

 

You have to handle these things with such care today. How are you going to get the congregation to act on somebody who is an adulterer or or whatever? So if I feel free to give the word church here, the meaning of church expressed through its duly appointed officers, that would simplify my life a lot. Our life a lot. And I would respect you if you if you made that choice. Go ahead. In the Apostle Church alone? I don't think so. But help me with what you're saying. Did the Apostles. I'm not sure. Did the the apostolic band constitute a church? Is that what you're asking? I'm misunderstanding walking through it, as you say, right here. Okay. Question is, did they get. I now see what you're asking. So the point is being made that when these words were spoken, Jesus was addressing his disciples. Did they constitute a church? And if not, who was he talking to? Well, in his own time, I would guess Ecclesia here. I assume that's the word. And check it out would be the loose band of his own. But that's a good question. How how was this to be obeyed, obeyed before Pentecost or before the constitution of local churches? I'm not sure what would be What would your answer be? I think they did. They constituted a church. Okay. And I don't have any problem with that. They they ate the Lord's Supper together. I mean, maybe that. Maybe it was the way to think of it is as Jesus and John the Baptist were baptizing a new people of God were being called out. I don't know if that's the way you think, just the way I think that John the Baptist comes on the scene. He looks at the people of God, Israel, and he knows this.

 

People are apostate by and large. I'm going to assemble a new people of God and I'm going to do it with a new sign, not circumcision we're going to baptize here. And so he starts baptizing and the Jews just go ballistic. Who do you think you are? We have. Abraham is our father. We don't need this sign. And he says God can raise up children to Abraham from stones if he wants to. This is the new messianic people we're assembling. Jesus comes along. He continues that the son of baptism continues on. So at least we could say this is a church in the making. If it's not a full fledged organized church. So now what would that the implication of that be for? Where are you going to connect that with my problem here of of how to do with the issue about yeah and how to do discipline if one of the disciples had this problem right. They would carry out these scandal. Right. They wouldn't just go to the 12th. They would go to the they wouldn't just when it says here, tell it to the church, they wouldn't say tell it to the 12 apostles. Many the disciples might. We don't. Yeah. Or what would constitute a church in that setting? I'm not sure either. There's another hand. Go ahead. Yeah. I don't think that this is on the church card. Yeah. Well, at least a point is being made. I'll repeat this for the tapes. Even for you. That the belief is that this ecclesia here in Matthew 1817 is the the Church of the New Covenant, the Church post Pentecost, the church created by the Holy Spirit, and that they didn't consist of a church here. And I think that we just have to realize, I think, the flexibility of the term.

 

There was an ecclesia in the Old Testament. It just. But we have in our minds something very particular about the New Testament church with its officers. And it's a gift of the Holy Spirit. We are baptized into one body by the Spirit. We have all of that in our head when we say church. Whereas the word ecclesia is a has a broader meaning that and so we had an expression here, expression in the Old Testament, God had a people for himself called ecclesia at every stage along the way, ever since able at least. But you're right that as far as the full blown meaning of church in the New Testament, it's after Pentecost. And this point is interesting to me because I'm thinking about the Old Testament. There are so many different ways of handling problems in the Old Testament that fall by the wayside. Now that I wouldn't know how to answer that question. There's so many different structures and for different kinds of sins. Go to priests for different kinds of sins. You do one kind of sacrifice and for a different kind of problem. You stone for another kind of problem you put outside the camp and for another kind of problem, you're unclean for a certain number of days. And I mean, it's just it is so complex. And thank goodness, with the turn in redemptive history and the coming of Christ, many of those things, most of those things have gone by the side. So anyway, there's an argument for Congregational Church government. Here's another one in the name of our Lord Jesus. This is first Corinthians five, four or five in the name of our Lord Jesus. When you are assembled, you Christians church, when you're assembled and I with you in the spirit, with the power, the Lord Jesus, you are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of His flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, as though is not just the elders who do this.

 

It's when the church is assembled that you all together do this act of discipline. So for those two texts and probably others that you could help me with, I would argue the point, namely that the decisive this is principle number six, the decisive Court of Appeal in the local church in deciding matters of disagreement is the gathered church assembly. And I think that has definite implications about the selection of leadership as well. Number seven, the local congregation, therefore should call and dismiss its own leaders. Now, I'm saying that's implied in the preceding principle. If it's not, I don't know where to get it. The local congregation should call and dismiss its own leaders. Now, in the Episcopal form of church government and in the Presbyterian form of church government, as I've asked around, besides reading generally, there's a kind of hybrid thing that goes on here, as I've said. Now, can a local presbytery who ordains in the prestigious church, the presbytery or not the local church in the Presbyterian church, the presbytery, which is presbyters elders from many different churches in some kind of synod, or what's the intermediate presbytery? The presbytery, they ordain, but I don't think they can unilaterally say, Now you go to that church and church, you accept him. There is an interaction with the local church that the church does some calling there as well. So even with that format and I don't know how it is so much with the Episcopal form where a bishop is the key ordaining officer and then appoints a rector or pastor to a local body, I would guess that that local body can also have a say there and the Episcopalians can help me with this or anybody knows the scene. Aha.

 

I. Okay. It's all what you get. The impression is, is that church government really is a mingling of biblical principle with practical, cultural, historical, local dynamics. And we just need to be honest about that and not absolutes, our little systems here, because it's just not that clear. That's why there are these different kinds, two texts that come to mind. Going in opposite directions. Huh? Titus. Appoint elders. Right. And then the other direction. Next six. Choose from among you men Who will do this? In that case, for deacons. Deacons? Yes. Okay. The two texts he's pointing out that seem to point in different directions, just like the Timothy Titus appoint elders in all the churches in Crete. So here you have a man like a bishop, functioning like a bishop who is pointing elders. And then you have execs where for the deacons choose from among yourselves. Somehow that had to be orchestrated, where the people chose deacons from among themselves to do this particular ministry. Number eight, the leaders of the church should be people who are spiritually mature and exemplary gifted for the ministry given to them and having a sense of divine urging and being in harmony with the duly established leadership of the church. Now, that's a mouthful, and every one of those phrases counts. But we wrote this, remember, before we chose any elders or even decided to do elders here at Bethlehem. But we were on our way and this was to be a guiding. So they are to be spiritually mature and exemplary. And here I just started the list. First Timothy three one following. We'll talk about this tomorrow in in detail about what the qualifications are. It is a trustworthy statement if any man aspires. So there should be some aspiration.

 

Doesn't have to be expressed. It's okay to go to a man and say, do you find within yourself any aspiration, any desire, any dream that now or someday God might be calling you to serve this church as an elder? If there's if that's not there, you don't coerce anybody onto the council. That's got to be there. That should be there. God should plant that in a man's heart. It's a fine work he desires to do. An overseer then must be above reproach. And here, start the list of what, 15 qualifications as I counted them today in these next verses. And so there should be spiritually mature, exemplary, qualified leaders. Titus one five The same thing following For this reason I left you in Crete that you would set in order Titus what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you. Namely, if any man is above reproach. And then 18 qualifications are listed just to show I'm just mentioning the text to show that there should be a giftedness, a qualification, gifted and unqualified, and having a divine urging few other text to point in the same direction. Just this giftedness idea in in Romans 12 six eight. If we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly. If prophecy in proportion to faith, if service in serving you teaches in teaching, he exhorts in his exhortation you gives of liberality and so on. There should be a giftedness when it comes to teaching and and leading you leads or acts 2028 be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Now we got to figure out a way in our churches to to see how that happens.

 

How does the Holy Spirit do this? You know, I've been I've been talking up to this time like what we set in place, this constitution. We did these structures and we did these things. And here the Texas God did it. Can we say that in Bethlehem we have 18 men who are elders. Can we say the Holy Spirit made them overseers? We should we should be able to give an account for how we submitted ourselves in this process and tried to design a discerning process. That was the Holy Spirit way of getting whom he wanted onto this council. That's really big. Surely it will involve huge prayer, fasting, biblical. He inspired the Holy, He inspired the Bible. And so to follow the Bible is to follow the Holy Spirit. And so there needs to be on the part of the aspiring elder much prayer and a sense of Holy Spirit compulsion and urging towards a sense that someday this will be right for me. And I believe that if it is and we have spiritual elders, they'll discern that and they'll come together, and then the people will discern that. And in all that mutual, prayerful, discerning with prayer and fasting, the Holy Spirit will have put in place his his elders. Somehow that needs to be thought through and worked through. And if you're in a church that isn't as spiritual as you'd like, teach on texts like this and just plead with the people that we have structures and we have prayer meetings and we have disciplines in this church that will lay ourselves open to the leading of the Holy Spirit in these ways. Philippians two two is a unity text. Make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

 

Now, that's why I said at the end of that principle number eight, that leaders should be in harmony with the duly established leadership of the church. I know we're running a risk here and I've been accused of it, so I know it keenly. We're running a risk of what do you call it when it's negative kingdom building or empire building, or if you have a vision of God. Of doctrine, of life, of mission and strong and powerful. You believe it's biblical. You want to preach it. You want to cultivate it. You want to build it. You run the risk of manipulating to get it right. If it's God's. You don't have to do that. It's God. You don't have to ever do the political thing and strategize and kind of do the the subtle lunch meetings and the little conversations in the corner and all the things where you just make sure what gets said, gets set in the right places so that everything is kind of humanly calculated to get these people where you want them saying what you want them to say That's evil. But on the other hand, I think it's falling to say, Oh, what we need on the floor is people with lots of different theologies, lots of different philosophies of ministry. It's chaos. Churches are wounded in her year after year because there's no deep, profound, united leadership in the church. That's that's saying, here's a vision, let's do it. And so there's a balance there. And and one of the reasons I drove with all my might for those ten years for a council of elders, where I would be one among 18 or 20 or 15 or whatever, is so that I could build the vision together with them through prayer and study into a group so that if I drop dead, it's not housed in a man, it's housed in a body of leaders.

 

And I think that's true today. If I dropped over of a heart attack right now, the elders that we have and most of them are right here in this room, would not miss a beat as far as how to lead this church, as what this church stands for, as what the next pastor should have is his passions and so on. If they do a next pastor like this one, they might structure it a different way. But I feel so good at the mission of the church, the philosophy of ministry, the doctrinal coherence. While there's lots of variety in this church out there in the boondocks and a lot of personality variety on staff and leadership as far as theological harmony and philosophy of ministry harmony. There's a lot of unity at the center and frankly, I will work hard to see that it stays that way. I hope I don't work politically to see that it stays that way. I will pray hard. I will preach hard. I will teach hard. I will pour my life out for those elders to help them see what I see. And then they'll vote and they'll choose who the next elder slate will be to put before the people. They will be my handpicked people. They will be 18 elders. This is something you may have had in your mind as to how we get a nominating slate. We don't have a nominating committee. Nominating committees are crazy. They are the most powerful group in the church and they're usually unfit for it. The leaders of the church should be the people who test the next leaders of the church. They don't have the last say. See the difference? They are the spiritually gifted testers. They are a sieve through which you put every candidate for leadership because they're the ones who've been entrusted with the spiritual leadership.

 

But then once they've tested and talked and prayed and met with them and say, No, not you and yes you, they lay them before the people and say you approve or disapprove here and you must have the last say. And so we as elders now, we will need about four new elders. The next year will need about four more minimum because of who's going off. And we have to have twice as many lay elders as vocational elders. So we're now hard at thinking and praying. We've got a list of 60 men, at least in this church, that we're saying, okay, who, Lord? And we're we're listening to them and seeking who might call it. Go ahead. People are very. Right. Precisely. There are three of those verses, namely one to Titus that says appoint elders in every city and one to Timothy. Do it at Ephesus. And then ex 1423, Paul appointed elders in every city. And my answer is I've already given my answer, but let me try to restate it. Those are either apostles getting the church started or the Apostolic representative, Apostolic Timothy and Titus were part of the apostolic band to get the church started in Crete. So for example, if you planted a church in among the Manika in Guinea, how do you get your first elders? Well, I wouldn't be opposed to jump starting a church. How did you do it, David? Okay. You said that. You said that. Who do you think you are? Well, you are like. You are like a Paul. That's who you are. But really, my argument is not. That's apostolic. There aren't any apostles today, so we don't do it that way, but rather these these other Congregationalist, these texts that point towards congregational life and governance.

 

So it's it's not I don't have an absolute proof. Just pointers. Go ahead. But aren't you fact of pointing and then it is affirmed by the you could you could view it that way. The question was, aren't you in fact, appointing and then the body is affirming. We call it recommending. I think that's the word we use. We recommend to the body. And then they affirm and you could use the word appoint. But you're right, the language is slippery there. I mean, clearly, we are exercising a great deal of authority at that point in deciding who will be put before the people. But I think we're being honest to our principles by saying those people will have the last say. So there is this body of elders, these 18 guys start to slip into some heresy or some immorality or some financial shenanigans. And everybody in the church knows this. They can, in our Constitution, unseat us. All good recommendations come from the body, from the assembly. It can it can. It can. I believe I'm not sure that I'd have to go back and read, but I think the way it's written, the congregation can almost do anything. Go ahead. That's right. We don't expect any losers. Is that what you're asking? Choose four out of six. No, no, that's not what we're doing. That that's something that whole process of having slates of candidates that have multiple candidates for every office, I think had this in its favor. It wanted to give more authority to the congregation. But de facto what happened was you're forced then to put people forward that you you might be forced to put people forward who you think might not be fit and hope that the congregation see it.

 

But in fact, they don't know them well enough. The elder ship needs to be absolutely certain they've probed into these guys backgrounds. Nothing's hidden here. This family is is functioning and and there's no financial misappropriation and there's no deep seated anger. And there's I mean, these things that in a big church like this, the congregation can't know is just a safety valve to have the congregation say, amen, we've done the hard work. Everything's hanging on our approval here. Ultimately, as far as whether they're fit or not, I think I will not push you beyond what what we promised. And so we will look at nine, ten, 11 tomorrow morning, and then we will take up just briefly to show you some historical things in the Baptist Church. I only put that here because I had to work really hard to overcome the notion that to have elders was a Presbyterian thing. And it isn't. It's a biblical thing with a lot of history in the Baptist church, and then we'll move on through these other. So let's pray. Oh, Father in heaven, I thank you so much for these brothers and sisters who are here to think hard about the church and about your precious bride, Lord Jesus. And I pray now that what we've said would simmer and that it would be guided by the Spirit and that it would be controlled by the word. And that churches represented in this room would be wonderfully blessed by each elder or potential elder or member going deeper into you and into your ways for your people. Lord, dismiss us now with your help and your blessing. Give us the rest we need tonight, I pray. Bring us back with energy. Tomorrow morning. I ask in Jesus name, Amen.

 

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